S1 E1 - VANESSA MCKERNAN - INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Welcome to Creative Clarity. I'm your host, Jeyda Deyna. Each conversation is designed to guide, uplift, and inspire as we explore creative flow, mindfulness, and breathwork, discovering what unfolds along the way. Today, we welcome artist and painter, Vanessa McKernan. My name is Vanessa McKernan. I am a painter from Toronto, but I'm currently based in the Ottawa Valley.

[00:00:31] I moved just in the summer of 2023. My paintings are primarily figurative in form. So I work with the body, with landscape, often with animal imagery. to create paintings and compositions that really speak to the human condition. In the studio, in my studio practice, painting is really a way for me to decipher the world and to [00:01:00] explore my own psyche and my own spirit.

[00:01:02] So, I'm Although the work is representational in that the viewer can identify and recognize, uh, objects within the paintings, they really live in the, in the realm of myth and somewhere, I like to think, in a liminal space between reality and fiction or between, uh, conscious and unconscious. Very interesting.

[00:01:31] What's a typical day in the life of an artist like you? I think as an individual, I am not a multitasker. I too, for better, for worse, compartmentalize. My days and chunks of time, and that's, that's just the way that I am as a human and I try not to judge it too much, but I'm a parent, so I have two, two young [00:02:00] children, Jules is seven and Raphael is four, so that parenting and mothering is its own compartment and its own thing in some sense, and when I'm not in the studio or working and I'm parenting, I'm really just like fully in that, in that, mode with them.

[00:02:19] That's a big part of my morning every morning until around 8 30 when they're off to school and daycare. And then I, if it's a studio day, I'll usually take a walk and come back and eat and then just get set up for painting. I like to have a good chunk of time. If it's a day where I'm producing work, a good kind of six hour chunk of time with no interruption.

[00:02:45] So I try not to schedule. meetings or appointments or anything in those blocks of time. And then of course as an artist there's also a fair bit of administrative work. Again if it's an [00:03:00] administrative day I try and lump everything together in that one day so I'm only at my desk. And then I also work part time, kind of contract based as a graphic web designer.

[00:03:11] If it's a design day, then again, like I give myself eight hours. Terrible for my body, but I just, I like to have painting days, be full painting days. And then desk days, be full desk days. And then again, my evenings, and my weekends are really with the family. I'm going to say this about your art. We met at Artist Project in Toronto, and as soon as I saw your art, It was an immediate resonance and I had mentioned you don't work off of a photograph.

[00:03:44] So it really comes from a discovery journey within. It resembled the Impressionist style and I'm a huge fan of Monet. And I feel you also captured the essence of Impressionism where [00:04:00] you start started by just adding colors and feeling kind of the motion of the brush and the direction the colors would go.

[00:04:08] And then from there, see what image comes out to you from what you've you're creating. And then all of a sudden it. reveals itself to you. I felt that was such an interesting relationship to have with your art, your paintbrush, the canvas, the paints, the colors, everything. And it's like storytelling, but in a mysterious way.

[00:04:35] And yeah, that stood out to me a lot. And I think that there's something very special about your art or your approach to it as well. Yeah, thank you. It's definitely a process of discovery, right? And I think I'm It when I'm in the studio, I'm, and I'm working on a figure or pulling a figure out of washes of color.

[00:04:57] It's endlessly fascinating who shows [00:05:00] up because often you, you have a face or a gesture or an image of a person that you don't know and suddenly they're like there with you on the canvas and it's, it's just, it's such an incredible process of discovery really. And I think to that point the paintings really do live these two lives.

[00:05:21] It's, they are this thing in the studio when I make them and I do not think at all about what they will be in the end. That is so far from my mind when I make them. It's just all about process and being in the moment and painting and I think work on a painting and then bring it to a show and it doesn't or it's in a gallery for a while and it doesn't sell and it comes back into the studio and then I'll keep reworking the painting.

[00:05:50] So sometimes I'll go back at a painting for two or three years because That's what being a painter is to me. It's studio time. It's being in [00:06:00] that process of being in that space of like delving into the unknown. And then they live a whole other life once they're out in the world. And I used to be really horrified when I would hang my work and look at it and, This is common, like I think a lot of artists feel this way, but just if I felt like I was done a piece, I would turn it and face it towards the wall.

[00:06:21] I just, I love making them, but I don't always like looking at them when they're finished. But I think when I, now I understand that when I, this is why I actually really love doing art, is because now I realize when they get hung on the wall and people come to look at them, they live this whole other life.

[00:06:36] The viewer comes in, and projects their own experiences onto the figures and the paintings, onto the work. It calls to different parts of their inner world and that's so incredible, right? It's like the painting has this whole other life that actually has nothing to do with me, which is really beautiful.

[00:06:55] You're trusting the process and you're learning to [00:07:00] detach and let it go. So you're gifting it to everybody else to experience and through that process probably you feel a little more comfortable with the end product. Yeah, that feels really good when someone, I feel that when somebody connects personally to a painting, it's reminiscent of my own early experiences with painting.

[00:07:20] They are connecting to the power of this medium and to something. In that piece and that's, again, I know I made the painting, but I see it a little more, more broad as that it's, I guess I give some of that credit just to the medium itself. But I think the part about me being horrified with the work is almost that it almost doesn't measure up to the experience I had while I made it.

[00:07:50] Like sometimes there's. And I know we're going to talk about flow state and being really in, in your [00:08:00] creative, being in the flow, in your creative process. I think having An aversion to the work once it's finished is really based in somehow it doesn't measure up to the grandiosity of the experience I had while I made it.

[00:08:18] Like I think sometimes I have these moments while I'm making the work where I feel like some kind of a truth is almost revealed to me. And these are like, and I said this yesterday in our pre interview, like these are, these moments are few and far between. Like the majority of. The work is just like wading through the muck of, and feeling, Oh, what am I doing?

[00:08:38] Or what, what is this? Or being embarrassed or just, it isn't all magic. But there are these beautiful, magical moments that feel so deep and so profound. And then I think in the end, sometimes looking at the painting, it's no, like you are not exemplary of what I felt when I made you. So it falls short, but that's okay.

[00:08:58] Again, that's just, [00:09:00] Part of my process and I've learned to understand that I am going to feel that way and it's fine and I'm still going to paint and show my work and just let it be what it is. Do you have any rituals or routines that you like to typically start the day with or practice before beginning to paint for the day?

[00:09:22] I do. So generally I walk in the morning. I'm living. in a rural area now, so there's a really nice kind of 60 minute loop that I take. each day after the kids are off to school. And that is sometimes I'll do for the first half, like a news podcast. Other times I feel like I don't want to listen to anything.

[00:09:46] I just want to walk. And that's just a really good way to loosen my body, lubricate my joints. And I also find it just allows me to get rid of a lot of the [00:10:00] hamster wheel thoughts around what's happening tonight, what do I have to do tomorrow, the task lists, all of that kind of stuff. And often I'll get ideas for what I want to paint or have, yeah, a moment of creative clarity on those walks.

[00:10:15] So that would be one morning ritual. And another ritual once I'm in the studio is setting up my palette for Oil painters and oil painters know this. You don't, I guess some people work straight out of the tube, but I have, you have a large glass table that you put all of your colors onto. And then I like to thin or dilute my paints with a medium.

[00:10:44] So there's a whole process of mixing that happens before you actually lay any color down. Oddly enough, I'll spend 30, 40 minutes laying out like a range of. colors and mixing grays. And [00:11:00] I like to work with a lot of color. Like I, I don't like to limit myself. So I'll set out a whole bunch of colors. And then just before I go to actually put something down on the canvas, I'll reach for like a totally different color than what I laid out.

[00:11:15] So again, I think that first palette The first palette I lay out is, how can I say this, it's still very much in my conscious mind and my intellect. And like, today I'm going to make a painting about this with these colors. And still very much related to thought. And it's like, I need to do that to free myself of that.

[00:11:39] And then I grab a totally different color, put that down, might be like hot pink, and start working. with that. So the intuition it's like the first color palette is all intellect and then I need to do that and then intuition takes over. So you almost feel more into [00:12:00] the next set of colors. You clearly set the stage for you to fully commit yourself to an extended period of time of undivided attention to your painting.

[00:12:12] What does that being in the zone look and feel like? I think for me being in the zone or being in a flow state is a state in which I completely bypassed my thinking mind. So I'm not I'm not really analyzing, I'm not thinking too much, I'm not, my intellect isn't dictating my actions in a way, or what colors I'm putting down, or what I'm drawing.

[00:12:49] I'm just going to think about this for a minute. I think I move in and out of it throughout the course of a painting session. So, It's [00:13:00] not like I start working and suddenly and then 15 minutes in I'm in it and then suddenly I'm like, oh my god, it's been four hours. Like I'm in and out. I think I'll get sore.

[00:13:11] Like sometimes that's something that pulls me out. I stand while I work. I like to be able to, especially when you're working on large canvases, you need to constantly be moving back and viewing things from a distance. And then getting closer, I have to lift the canvases up and adjust them on the wall to work on, for example, like the bottom half of a painting or lift it and put it down to work on the top half of a painting.

[00:13:38] Sometimes I'm on step ladders. Sometimes I'll break, like my body will tell me, okay, like you need to sit down or you need to stretch your arm or and then I'll pull out of that state and then go back in. Uh, so yeah, I would say in and out throughout a painting session, but I think the [00:14:00] It's so hard to put, actually it's hard to put this in words, right?

[00:14:04] Like it's, and I think why it's hard to put it in words is that it's, painting is already a wordless medium to me, and so the, the flow state feels so non verbal and non conscious in some sense. I think I'm. I lose track of my mind, I lose track of my body until it starts to call out to me. I'm really, I really let go of my sense of self, and I think also let go of my identity.

[00:14:42] I feel like this just gets like really trippy, but it's like I'm, it's almost like I'm not me and yet I'm more me than More me than ever or more connected to something inside of myself that feels really authentic and feels [00:15:00] more true than anything in my external world, but I let go of my identity as Vanessa and a mother and All of these, all these kind of entity constructs, like, it's like I'm just more in tune with my spirit, my psyche.

[00:15:14] So cool, so nice. You have your studio at home and it's connected to the family home. I guess your children are at school probably while you're painting during the day. But do you have a lot of distractions trying to find you? I really set the boundary. I think I, my, my husband also works from home and That's new, because in Toronto, I would leave the house, I would be at my studio.

[00:15:38] I worked alone in a space, there was no one else there. So it's new for us to be in the same space. The studio is very separate from the rest of the house, we can't hear each other. It's just connected by a hallway. But yeah, I actually, I had to give him a very clear boundary, which was if you, there's a window.

[00:15:57] like in the door that leads into the studio from the [00:16:00] hallway. And I told him, if you look in through the window and I'm, I'm standing at my wall and like I'm working, you can't come in. You have, you can't, you have to wait. You have to send me a text message. And I'll, when I, next time I go to look at my phone, I'll see the message.

[00:16:14] You can't come in. And yeah. And he was like, okay. And then I think one time he came in and he was like, I just have to grab like a hook from over here or something like from this utility room. And, and I was like, I took a breath and I was like, he just needs to get a hook. But I realized, and then he left and I was so like, I, it really broke my flow.

[00:16:39] And I said to myself, I see how it feels like a small thing to just need to come in and grab a hook. And he's not even talking to me. But it pulls me back into that Vanessa person, right? And I, and so I said to him later that night, you can't even come in to get a hook. That's, you might not understand it, but you just have to [00:17:00] respect it.

[00:17:00] And he did, and he does, and he's also an artist, and not a visual artist, but he, he got it. And, or maybe not got it entirely, but respects it, and really doesn't. doesn't come in anymore when I'm working. So I'm really, I'm like really protective of my space. That's so interesting how flow states is so fragile.

[00:17:23] Really, I guess we're protecting that. We're protecting this and it becomes like an innate instinctual reaction to the point where one has to take a breath to calm down because otherwise there's going to be a pounce. A whole, like, get out of my territory now reaction, which I guess is the part where it's like hard to translate that always to everybody else because it's very much connected to how your intuition wants to express itself, maybe, I don't know, yeah, you were going to say something.

[00:17:54] Yeah, no, just that it's such a quiet part of yourself. It doesn't [00:18:00] have an ego. It doesn't have. a loud voice, like it's, and it's so hard to access, right? So I think once you have some kind of a practice that allows you to access it, like you said, how fragile it is, and you really have to respect that and protect it.

[00:18:20] Some people have difficulty setting aside and carving out dedicated time to create. And a lot of adults express creating as a challenge for them to achieve, express like spending time on their own art as an obstacle, because it is such a fragile state and it does time. Require a person, set aside those boundaries, make it very clear, dedicate the time while juggling everything else that's maybe going on.

[00:18:55] And this is why I relate it to a [00:19:00] practice of expanding and exploring the habits that will support it. Keep reminding yourself how important it is. Because in flow state, as you were explaining, it's so timeless, it's so effortless. It is such a Wonderful feeling. It's like healing on such an intuitive and spiritual level, you're connecting with your truth and you're expressing it in a most pure way.

[00:19:25] You don't need to prove it to an audience. You're simply like in motion with it, which is a special exercise. Yeah, I mean, I do think, and this It just came to mind as you were speaking, I think it can be beautiful, but it can also be scary. And for me, and this is where there's this often this kind of melancholic undertone to some of my work, it's, I often will connect to something that feels like a really deep sadness.

[00:19:56] I see how that is something people want to [00:20:00] avoid, right? At least live in a world that's very much about what can you do to feel good. And That's not how I operate in the world and I think it's, feeling good is great but I'm also really interested in the darker or all the parts of ourself and those parts come up too.

[00:20:20] I think when you're in a flow state or when you're somewhere with that like deep quiet part of yourself. As I know, because you witness emotional release and breath work and, right, that can be really scary for people. Scary to admit and scary to accept and to let go of. It could sometimes be a very, uh, it's like a comfort zone when a person's so used to it being around, that letting go of it opens up the space to an unknown.

[00:20:53] You don't know. And that part can be a bit scary too. So yeah, it's such a journey. [00:21:00] Breathwork and painting. Are you now a full time artist? And leading up to today, what was your balance between painting as a career and did you also have other work? Maybe I can speak to that, hopefully. Yeah, definitely. No, it's such a hard question because I'm in a bit of a transition right now where I'm transitioning out of part time web design work.

[00:21:31] And I am right now in the studio mostly full time because that work is coming to a close. But for the last 10 years, I've had one foot in web design, graphic design world, and one foot in painting and through throughout different parts of the year, that balance shifts slightly where I'm when I was just lucky enough to have this really great contract that allowed for [00:22:00] flexibility.

[00:22:00] And I shared the work with another painter. So we were really great. You have a show coming up. I'll take over this week or sharing. the work in that way, just depending on what our exhibition schedules were. But I actually really liked having a foot in that world and was really grateful for that work and for the way it still allowed me to have a really vigorous studio practice, but always helped me to cover my bottom line financially.

[00:22:30] And I was, I think, mentioned this to you yesterday, having, I think for artists, most artists have. a side hustle. And it's funny because I think there's this, you always get this question, and I get this question a lot from people at art fairs, are you a full time artist? And it's, I've spent so many years like trying to get there and being in and out of that, but it's really hard to do it full time.

[00:22:56] And I think for me and the kind of work that I [00:23:00] make, if I wanted, maybe not right now, right now people are buying what I make and I'm making what I want to make. So that's great. But I think prior to this, I would have had to compromise on the type of imagery that I use. I would have had to compromise on the melancholic nature of my work, which doesn't always sit well with people, in order to sell more work.

[00:23:24] And I never wanted to do that. I always wanted to let the painting, the paintings that I made, come from the as pure and as honest of a place as possible and not compromise for the sake of sales or commerciality. Yeah, so it's, I've been lucky to have a really great side hustle and, and that may or may not continue.

[00:23:45] Again, I'm, it's a really transitory phase for me right now where I'm just applying for every grant possible and really trying to make it work and I think moving, leaving Toronto and I just renovated an 800 square foot [00:24:00] studio space. In so many ways it feels like this is my time to do it but I'm also conscious of the fact that I have a family and I, and it has to work financially and if I need to go back and find some more design work, I will, right.

[00:24:15] And it's, it's important. It's also a great skill set to have when you're an artist because it's not a problem for me to format images and put catalogs together and format web posts and fix things on my website. Like it's, I have a knowledge base and that really helps with my work as an artist as well.

[00:24:34] A lot of artists can relate trying to make both work. In a harmonious way. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. It's not an easy, it's not an easy road. If you're a creative individual, and you don't create, eventually that will eat you from the inside out. I know that's harsh, but it really will. And I, and as I get older, I, I see that in people.

[00:24:58] It's, wow, you're, [00:25:00] You're creative, but you've stifled it for whatever reason. And it's, yeah, I think that that comes for you. You gotta, you have to let that part of your being express itself. So important. Hopefully it builds up so much to the point where a person must unleash it. So in a healthy, safe and healthy way.

[00:25:22] And maybe I'm projecting my own, you know, it's like, if I have a month where design work is really busy and family obligations keep me out of the studio and I haven't had like solid chunk of time in my studio, I'm not a nice person. So maybe that's just my own experience. It eats me from the inside out if I don't have my time here, it's, it's so important in, in, in, it becomes so important in other areas.

[00:25:52] of my life for me to be able to remove myself and be here and create. It allows me, I think, to be a better mother, [00:26:00] to be a better partner to in the world as a good human.

[00:26:06] Now we move into our guided breathwork, followed by a recap of the experience. How was that for you? How did it feel? You can go on all those levels of Whatever that journey was like for you, physically, in your thoughts, visions. I think the whole first, I mean the breathwork part of it, I feel like there's two parts, the breathwork and then the meditation afterwards.

[00:26:33] So the breathwork was really intense. I felt like I was dizzy, like I felt dizzy. I was glad that I was lying down because I started to feel quite lightheaded. It And, and then my teeth were chattering. Like I felt like when I had came to holding my breath, my teeth were chattering. Ever so slight, not a really intense chattering, but that was [00:27:00] strange.

[00:27:00] And I felt, I mean, a lot of tension for sure. I think the good thing is, I guess I also feel like the breath work I've done is really slow. That was interesting. For it to be quick, two seconds felt quick to me, so to be doing quick inhales and exhales, I think there's a certain amount of like tension, there was a certain amount of tension in that for me to be quick, but then it feels like that actually also allowed for just like something else to take over, like in the sense that then I started experiencing other sensations like dizzy and chattering, and so that was new, and really interesting.

[00:27:44] And then the holds, I felt like after the last hold, I had the teeth chattering. And then I started in the meditation, I started thinking about, you know, when you're a kid and you cry and your teeth, like your teeth, you have get that teeth chattering sensation. And [00:28:00] I was like, thinking about that in Raphael, like in my own child, when he gets really upset.

[00:28:08] And then I started thinking about. Myself as a child and. Oh, wow. And then I had, sorry. It's okay. Yeah, then I feel like I had a really powerful vision of myself that it was in a specific place. So I lived in cities most of my life, but when I was really young, like five, I lived. on the lake, like next to a lake.

[00:28:37] And I saw like myself as a child there. And, and I was, yeah, just like out on the lawn, like in front of the lake, like running around and, and it was really beautiful. And then it was really emotional. Yeah. And then I, my adult self went to my child self and greeted her and just, just like [00:29:00] said hi. And then we were just together and She took me, she kind of walked me around the property and took me just to this, we had, they were essentially mostly feral cats, but we had like this shed on the property where cats lived, and, and I would go and hang out with the cats, and she took me in there and she was Look at my cat.

[00:29:25] And then she walked me around the back to another part of the property and shared. That's where I learned to ride a bike. So I had a vision of that and, and just have a few kind of experiences, really beautiful, like happy memories in that space and on that property. And yeah. And then I just held her for a while.

[00:29:44] Like, As if she weren't my own child. What seems like a simple breathing exercise actually becomes this very profound journey and connection between what I feel like is your [00:30:00] intuition coming forward and cradling you a little bit, taking you through some experiences that are completely and purely part of your path.

[00:30:11] and that hold a lot of like special meaning to yourself. For sure. For sure. I mean, there's so much there. I think actually generally I view my childhood as difficult. So it was really beautiful to kind of almost have be shown like that there was beauty there as well. And there was goodness there. And that, that young Vanessa, like actually was in that.

[00:30:32] I mean, I, and I did always love that home. Like, I love, I have, I do have really good memories of that space, but I think sometimes if there's like any childhood trauma, you can get a bit bogged down in the trauma and that sort of casts a shadow on all of the more positive, beautiful experiences. So it was just really nice to, Acknowledge that.

[00:30:51] Acknowledge the good in that time and in my childhood and very unexpected. Yes. Wow. Did you get any [00:31:00] senses of low state, like timelessness, effortlessness, anything like that come through where you were not aware of where you were? Any of the to dos that were on your mind just circulating? Just you were completely in that moment and that moment itself was super expansive.

[00:31:19] There was no limit around it whatsoever. Yes, I mean what, it's funny because I feel like the adult self, that the child self, was actually very much me. Like I, me as the person I am today, as the person I am now, but I guess in a certain sense the child in the scene or vision or I don't even know what we're calling it, is also me.

[00:31:43] So in that sense it's two periods of time existing at the same time, a past self and a present self together. So is that timelessness or is it just the meeting of two times? Yeah, I guess that would be timelessness. [00:32:00] How would those experiences during the breathwork compare to how you feel when you're in such a flow state while creating?

[00:32:09] I mean, I do not have things like that happen. I mean, that feels like, what just happened feels very unique and new. And really interesting, and I feel like I need to start doing breakfast. That's such, that's such a fascinating way to access a deep part of yourself, but it feels very different from my flow state.

[00:32:32] Yeah, that's interesting. Which is, which, yeah, which is, I say disconnected from myself. I guess it's not, but a deep part of myself that kind of is its own Thing this felt the breath work and what happened in the breath work felt like a message or like a healing maybe To some kind of a yeah, some kind of a healing I mean, I started a psychotherapy like I I've started working with a psychotherapist after I had my [00:33:00] first son because I was so shocked by the way in which having children brought out your own inner child and brought back all of this stuff from your childhood that you thought you had resolved or that I thought I had resolved.

[00:33:14] It was like, it was all right back in my face. Oh, you think you've got this? Like, you haven't. All going to come back on a daily basis. Now you're back in the life of a family. You're back in a dynamic of a mother and a father and children. And that was just, can I swear? Yes. Okay. That was just like a shit storm.

[00:33:34] Like it was just like, And so shocking to me, like, I felt like nobody had ever talked about that with regards to having children. That it brings up so much of your own history in a family. So it's been really helpful for me to work with a psychotherapist and just try and, you know, resolve some of those things so that I can be a better parent and, and really be in, in the family that I'm in and not always [00:34:00] projecting my experiences from my original family onto my current situation.

[00:34:06] But, but that's, you know, that's its own thing. And then painting feels like its own thing, but this just felt like what a really interesting way to kind of access your unconscious self or I don't know, a really deep part of yourself. Like it's, it's as if hearing you speak, it's like a mysterious part of you and it's presenting the story with the visions and there's a lot of symbolism or messages that come through.

[00:34:37] Anyone can try and interpret for you. It's like such a personal, relatable connection that now it's almost like the start of a new journey of discovering it. And I wonder, What do you see? These experiences in the breathwork potentially like this experience I came through with that vision [00:35:00] translating into some of your artwork into because there's a lot of symbolism there.

[00:35:05] There's a story there. There's characters there. There's a lot. You could go about it many ways. If you tapped into that feeling, do you see something coming out onto a canvas? I do, I do, for sure. I mean, I'll probably write about the experience. I journal, so I'll kind of write everything down. And then it's hard to say when something ends up getting put onto a canvas.

[00:35:27] Sometimes it's a process of years before something actually comes out. But I do work with cat imagery, so I also find it interesting that to have that reference brought up again that I had sort of forgotten about that really young experience with like a whole bunch of cats. So there's some really interesting imagery there that, yes, is definitely a subject matter and source imagery.

[00:35:54] Yeah. When you normally face a challenge or a block, creatively. Do [00:36:00] you have any specific techniques that you use to overcome it or? Yes, and actually I feel like this also will feed into your question on playfulness in a lot of ways because I think when I'm stuck in the studio I switch materials so that's, I find kind of a really great way to kind of trick myself out of focusing on being blocked and move into like a childlike play, place of like play and discovery.

[00:36:34] You know, the work you saw at the artist project and the work most people see is in oil paint and, but in my studio, like I, I work with watercolor and charcoal and I make drawings and, and monoprints and a whole bunch of other things. So generally I'll, uh, switch materials. I'll start working on a drawing or I'll like sit down at my desk and seated work on really small [00:37:00] watercolors or introduce, I work on Mylar.

[00:37:03] Sometimes I'll start working on Mylar. So kind of introducing a new material or one that I work with less frequently. Helps me to just not be so serious about what I'm doing and because that's oftentimes work that nobody sees anyway It's just a little bit. I care less about it. Like it's yeah, so changing materials would be one way I do think that there on occasion there are days where it might be a painting day and I go to work and I can't work and Sometimes, I feel like in the past I would more often say okay, this is just like not going to work today and I would walk away.

[00:37:40] Now I, again, and this is in the context of just having kids and just knowing that you have this day, use the day, like I don't really let myself do that anymore. I just start working. Even if I, again, the color mixing is a really great. I don't need to have an idea in order to mix paint. Just mix the paint.

[00:37:59] I, I, you [00:38:00] know, there's the voice in my head saying, just mix the paint, just put the brushes out, right? Like almost fooling yourself that you're not going to actually do anything. You're just going to like, take these small steps, get yourself set up, see what happens. That doesn't seem like a great answer to what do you do when you're, when you have a creative block, you just create.

[00:38:16] Cause obviously if you have the block, it's hard to create, but like, I think you're free. Yeah. It's almost like you're, you're explaining it as your mind is reminding itself, you get to paint. Like it's such a privilege. You're, you're grateful for it. So even if there is a block, you acknowledge that it's a whole part of the nature of creating and the nature of being a human.

[00:38:39] And again, you remind yourself, I get to paint, I get to make these colors. I get to explore it. I get to kind of navigate this block, overcome it, and then celebrate. So all part of the process. Do something. Don't, maybe not the thing that you attend, thought you were going to do that day, but [00:39:00] do something no matter how small it is.

[00:39:01] Yeah. minimize the expectations and just do it. So would you say that creating, like the act of creating your art, painting, all that serves as kind of like a therapy for yourself? Is it very therapeutic and transformative tool? It is. It is. I mean, I always used to say that I felt like art school, like my undergrad felt like four years of therapy.

[00:39:29] Like it was, You know, the program I was in at Concordia, I'm not sure what it's like now, but when I was there, it was very little technical training and very much just like, here's a studio, work. Okay, we have a four hour class right now, just like get your paints out and work. So they really, But there wasn't, yeah, they really, I think, ingrained a studio practice, um, without a lot of specifics around what you had to work on.

[00:39:59] I'm losing [00:40:00] my train of thought. What was the original question? Um, art being a form of therapy. Therapeutic. Is it, you know, a great way of, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I think just having that time in the studio, I always. used to say felt like four years of therapy in a way like it felt heavy and it was like I was dealing with a lot like anyone in their early 20s is right you're really coming to terms with your personhood and trying to understand yourself and And so I did a lot of that work alongside, like, developing a painting practice, so it was definitely therapy and definitely still is.

[00:40:42] I mean, having somewhere to put my emotions and to give, expression or life to all the parts of myself that I really struggle to talk about or [00:41:00] to, you know, shed light on. Having a place to put all of that is endlessly therapeutic. And as we talk about this topic of therapy, I can almost see how it'd be great for there to be like courses about breath awareness because I can really see how when a person has regulated their breathing and nervous system or even uses some of those breathing exercises, if they're experiencing a big major block or resistance from painting that day, reset their energy.

[00:41:34] Maybe even tune into a few of what the visions and things that could come in with enhancing their imagination or is it, if it's like really more, um, just focused on having a better mind body connection before then engaging in the act of creating could be helpful. For sure. I mean, I think I would say at the start of your, of your work day or the start of your painting session, I could see that just being [00:42:00] an incredible tool.

[00:42:02] Because again, it helps you to just disconnect from whatever pressure you're putting on yourself to make this thing you need, think you need to make or, you know, and helps you connect to something deeper. And ultimately, that's the work I think most artists want to make. And that's when an artist's work is at its strongest, is when it's coming from, from a deep place that's true to their own personal experience.

[00:42:33] Yeah, I could see it being really fantastic as a way to start your studio day or your studio session. Yes, I guess we'll see. Yeah. So do you have, like, what advice would you give other aspiring artists who are looking to cultivate a much greater sense of flow in their work? Uh, perhaps more mindfulness, like being a lot more present with their [00:43:00] creativity.

[00:43:01] Any advice? We've talked about a lot of different subjects and a lot of approaches to art, a lot of ways of creating, but what comes through? Yeah. Yeah. This is, um, a phrase that I can pay credit for, but one that, um, has really helped me in my artistic journey through the last 20 years. And a painting teacher of mine told me this, the phrase is kill what you love.

[00:43:34] And so what that essentially means pretty intense. It is. It's really intense. And I'm going to not probably not what you were expecting me to say, but so the phrase is kill what you love. And essentially what that means is I'll just use the example of painting. Cause obviously that's easiest for me to speak to, but when you're working on something, Usually there's something within the [00:44:00] composition that you feel really sentimental about or, or attached to and maybe it's like a really beautiful face that you painted or something that you're just like, that you love, that you have this really deep feeling about and you're struggling with the piece on a whole and you're, you're modifying everything To keep that, like, that one part of the composition intact.

[00:44:28] And generally, if you kill it, meaning, if you paint over it, and you forget about it, the whole painting will open up. And on a whole, it will get better. And on a whole, it allows the composition, it allows the concept, it allows the feeling, it allows everything within the work to expand. Kill what you love.

[00:44:52] Have you done that? Have you ever? I do it all the time. I do it all the time. How? So for example, when you're painting and you love this part of it, [00:45:00] you'll just paint over it? I will. Yeah, quite often. The piece you saw at the artist project that I know we talked about that had the goats in it with the figure in the center, you know, that painting was originally like these lovers in a park and the composition was just not working because I was so attached to the gesture between these two figures in the foreground and they were holding each other and it felt like, oh, this is just like such a moment.

[00:45:26] And, and so I just, I put the painting away. I didn't touch it right away. I was like, okay, maybe I need some time, some distance from this and took it out a couple months later. And then got rid of those two figures, and that ended up being a totally different painting that I think was much stronger in the end.

[00:45:42] But I had to kill that part of the composition. I had to rework it, I had to paint over it. And that, I think also, you know, I'm, I'm so many years into doing that that I trust it. It doesn't feel like, maybe it's not for everyone. To me, I know that it's part of my process, and [00:46:00] Sure, there's the occasional time when I look back on a photograph of a piece that I've reworked and I'm like, why didn't you just leave that as it was?

[00:46:07] But more often than not, I, you know, the piece gets somewhere stronger from me editing and removing parts of the painting that I'm overly attached to. My goodness, that is super brave. And it almost relates to many, many ways that you can apply that kill what you love to Life. Attachments. You know, when you love something so much and you're so, so attached to it, that could be a source of suffering as well.

[00:46:39] And it's like a process of detaching so that you are free of it and you can explore beyond. And I guess it's also I don't know if it's tying into this idea, but even loving the things that aren't as lovable, treating them as [00:47:00] equal, seeing the beauty and the imperfect for yourself, like what, you know, the way that you view it.

[00:47:05] Definitely. Because I think for me, the thing that I'm attached to is often something that's sort of classically beautiful in the painting, right? And So it's like there's a part of me that's attached to it because oh it's so beautiful but it's like okay you know what else is there what else is there that that you're avoiding because you want to just look at this beautiful thing is there more meaning here in what in what what else is possible what else is possible in this and what what else can come out of this outside of being attached to the pretty thing.

[00:47:39] I struggle with that a lot though you know that's a constant struggle for me it's oh this this it's all just so pretty what are you doing you know it's The work gets kind of, um, yeah, it's, I don't know. Well, yeah, no, it's good. It's great for everybody who is listening to hear this too, because there's tons of perfectionists out there.

[00:47:58] We know that [00:48:00] sometimes I think a lot of artists hold back from creating because of the weight of perfection and how heavy it feels on them. And that in itself is just such a shame because the creating part should be the part that's highlighted and welcomed. in and an artist wouldn't want perfection to get in the way of that.

[00:48:23] It somehow subconsciously sometimes does. And that is a fantastic practice. Kill what you love. That could be like the, the name of a workshop one day when all these artists, self proclaimed perfectionists are invited. Or would you smudge all the colors? That's the, that's the, another one of the beauties of oil paint and why I love oil paint.

[00:48:49] Like it can take two to three days to dry. You can easily go back and just wipe something out and you just end up with a smudge of colour and then you can rework it. Or [00:49:00] even while the paint is wet you can draw lines into the wet paint and rework. I don't prime the canvas again. I just work on top of, uh, the existing colours that are there.

[00:49:11] Wipe it, smudge it out a bit and then rework it. There's a Toronto based artist named Iris Haussler, who works in primarily in like sculpture and installation. And she has a really fascinating practice of essentially taking on like a fictional persona and then creating an entire body of work out of that persona.

[00:49:36] The work that you see is presented as. the work of a fictional artist but really it's her and she made all of this work and her practice is so interesting and I had admired it for many years and then She actually started teaching through the Toronto School of Art doing these Studio Works courses, which were, which are essentially [00:50:00] like group mentorship courses where we would meet.

[00:50:04] It was like post pandemic. I started doing them, I think, right after the pandemic. So they were on Zoom, and there would be like six or seven, her and six artists, um, and we'd just talk about practice. And what's coming up for us in our work. And then we, each week we would look at someone's work and talk about it.

[00:50:23] And, and she really instilled in me, really talked about the studio as a sanctuary and protecting your studio space. And. being conscious of who you let in there and do you let the gallerist in to come and look at the work and honouring it and protecting it and that she just really validated a lot of things for me that I've always felt about my studio and my studio time in a concrete way and She's just an exceptional human being and has really been in some ways a mentor to me the last couple of years [00:51:00] and I yeah such a fantastic and phenomenal time getting to know you getting to know your art and Hearing all your stories and how it comes together.

[00:51:13] It's just such a another level of inspiration and a big big source Of that too, so thank you. Oh my gosh, and thank you so much. I feel like you've introduced me to, uh, another practice that needs to be a part of my life. Yeah, it's really, that was so special, and thank you so much. Yes, another realm to explore.

[00:51:36] I'll be looking forward to the, uh, updates, and who knows? Yeah, like it even made me think, oh my gosh, if only I lived in the same city as you. Because also the, the feeling that I had after. I felt like I could have just stayed there, you know, on the mat quite a while. Yeah, like how deep can you go, you know, into that?

[00:51:58] Thank you for tuning in [00:52:00] to Creative Clarity. Until next time, stay inspired, stay mindful, and keep creating.